Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: The classroom was filled with artwork. So artwork, like hanging from the ceiling and on the side of the wall. And then they even had art that
[00:00:10] Speaker B: was kind of moving.
Wow.
[00:00:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:00:13] Speaker B: Sounds very overstimulating.
[00:00:14] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, that's exactly what I was going to say. And so trying to be in that space and then follow the direction of the teacher, read what's on the board, and kind of doing what I'm supposed to be doing was just so incredibly hard. And I. I didn't at the time have the words for this is really hard. Like, I. I don't know why.
[00:00:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:00:38] Speaker A: But I would be often, specifically in that class not getting stuff done because it was so draining.
Welcome, everyone. My name is Stuart Cheverton and I'm a mental health social worker and owner of Safe Place Therapy. And today, Daniel Di Piacho with us. He's a sexologist and therapist with Safe Place Therapy.
We'll get into a short story first, but I'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land in which we meet today.
These are the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation. And I'd like to pay my respects to elders past, present and emerging.
And this land has never been ceded and always will be first nations land.
[00:01:27] Speaker B: So.
[00:01:28] Speaker A: Hey, Daniel, welcome back and. Well, welcome me back a little.
[00:01:32] Speaker B: Yeah, welcome you back.
[00:01:33] Speaker A: Yeah, that's it.
So, yeah, my little end story for you.
I had a client who came and see me and they love the TikTok. Every session they come, they kind of share different things, and then they asked me my opinion on it. So the video that they saw was an adult looking in their wardrobe, unable to get ready because they couldn't decide what to wear.
And the person looked at the camera and basically said, if you can't decide what to wear in the morning, you might have adhd or you do have adhd.
Yeah, very quick. I wish we could do that that quick all the time.
So I think. I think there's a real importance here in terms of taking a piece of something, a difficulty that can be actually explained in so many different ways, but then we plunk it under the ADHD label and what do you know, you have adhd.
I think we can all get lost in stories or anecdotes that really kind of take away the bigness of a diagnosis and the real difficult symptoms that people experience.
More on that later.
But I think there's been so much stories and social media around adhd.
Otherwise, the long name is attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, with lots of people getting diagnosed, lots of people saying they have ADHD when they haven't gone through the process.
And I think it's good to get some real facts on the table and narratives on the table that align with symptomology, not just I have ADHD because of this.
So one subject we wanted to cover today was the kind of specific subtype of adhd, which is inattentive adhd.
So. Yeah. Did you want to kind of share a little bit about the differences between inattentive ADHD and hyperactivity adhd?
[00:04:05] Speaker B: Well, the way that I typically speak about it with clients that are wanting to look further into this is that hyperactive adhd, I typically say, is more external. So the symptoms you could see are more external. Whereas what flies under the radar is inattentive ADHD because the symptoms are internal, such as the sense around overwhelm or appearing as quote, unquote, lazy or daydreaming, difficulty applying oneself to certain tasks, that arm of interest.
So it can be really debilitating. And typically it doesn't really get picked up from an early age, unlike the more externalized symptoms.
[00:04:49] Speaker A: Yeah. And what we often do in the kind of psychology world is kind of sit in the childhood scene one, because all of us go through childhood and primary school and often too, a lot of masking or filtering oneself isn't happening yet.
[00:05:13] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:05:14] Speaker A: Because the child doesn't know and we're
[00:05:16] Speaker B: still navigating the world as children.
[00:05:19] Speaker A: That's it.
But what we will do later on is kind of move to a workplace scene and kind of note down, even if you are masking here maybe some signs or something, things to note, not to say you have ADHD because of these things, but just kind of building a story of what, what may be going on potentially if you have undiagnosed inattentive adhd.
So sitting in the kind of child scene in a, say, primary school or kind of early high school, what would be some signs or presentations of the inattentive kid sitting in the classroom?
[00:06:06] Speaker B: Yeah. So it could be a sense of quietness that the child doesn't really speak.
It could be a sense around not doing homework or not applying themselves in the actual school, but also acing the assignments because there's so many naturally gifted folk living with adhd.
There's also a sense around perhaps having difficulties socializing with others. That's also a big one.
It's more so that sense around not being able to connect with maybe what's in front of them or people around them is typically what I would talk into.
[00:06:46] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I think speaking from my generation, mid-30s, back when I was in primary school, you could definitely point out I do remember certain kids who couldn't sit still, so they were bouncing off the walls or would be interjecting in the classroom or just would ask multiple questions again and again. Again, those kids not to diagnose every kid that I went to school with, but are highly more likely to get diagnosed or be seen as hyperactive, dare I say disruptive, and they would be seen much more easily than someone with potential inattentive adhd.
[00:07:41] Speaker B: Yeah. And that sense of hyperactivity, because it may be causing some disruption in the class. There is that focus on that child or children within the class. Class.
[00:07:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:51] Speaker B: And therefore the child or children living within a term don't really get seen because they are acing their assessments. And when it comes to the bigger pieces of work.
[00:08:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:01] Speaker B: Now, perhaps they are acing that because again, there's that always that story of if only they had applied themselves, you know, they're naturally gifted. What I hear a lot when folk that have been formally diagnosed with an intensive adhd, when they talk about their childhood, they talk into this feeling of, you know, whenever they went to parent teacher meetings, that the teacher would always say, you know, they don't really do the homework. But then when it comes to the assessments, they almost score, you know, a high distinction, so to speak.
And so if only they had applied themselves.
[00:08:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:35] Speaker B: And that could create a bit of shame as well and further provoke the internalization.
[00:08:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
I have this specific memory in year five where this teacher, Mrs. Elliot. Hi, Mrs. Elliot.
Very short lady, but had a really beaming voice, so I was a little bit scared of her.
But the other part of it was the classroom was filled with artwork, so artwork, like hanging from the side, the ceiling and on the side of the wall. And then they even had a art that was kind of moving.
[00:09:16] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:09:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:09:18] Speaker B: Stimulating.
[00:09:19] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, that's exactly what I was gonna say. And so trying to be in that space and then follow the direction of the teacher, read what's on the board, and kind of doing what I'm supposed to be doing was just so incredibly hard. And I. I didn't at the time have the words for this is really hard. Like, I don't know why.
[00:09:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:09:42] Speaker A: But I would be often, specifically in that class not getting stuff done because it was so draining.
[00:09:51] Speaker B: Yeah. And environment is a huge factor to play in for folk living with adhd, just more broadly. But that's a great example in terms of, you know, environment impact and so on who may be living with intensive. Yeah, it's this kind of over stimulating environment which creates further internalization and bit of a shutdown.
Yeah.
[00:10:11] Speaker A: And so really just kind of sitting at a childhood level, if we actually kind of sit with a child's experience of different things, that can be a really good window in terms of, of if something is hard for them, but maybe not necessarily hard for other children.
Maybe that might be a good indication of something's happening for them.
[00:10:39] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I really advocate always to challenge the rhetoric of, you know, if only, if only you did this and you should do this, rather than how could I be assistance to you and what it. What are you needing to feel more comfortable?
[00:10:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Another client that I saw recently who's in year 11 recently got diagnosed with ADHD. And the dilemma they had was for them school was so easy right up until like six months ago where the, you know, they were kind of doing university level maths.
It became a challenge for them. But prior to that they were acing things that were top of class here and there.
That lack of challenge or that lack of tuning in when the stress is there and the tension was there that was missing for them the whole time.
And therefore they were undiagnosed able to
[00:11:44] Speaker B: function perhaps to a certain.
[00:11:46] Speaker A: Yeah.
But then when the, you know, the difficulty was raised, that's when all these things came out.
[00:11:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And it's kind of that pie of life aspect, that sense around, you know, there's certain aspects in someone's life where, you know, bridging it to the adult world as well. It could be work, finances, you know, it could be if child world schooling, you know, friends, family and if there's stresses in one that could further heighten ADHD symptoms.
[00:12:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:23] Speaker B: So that's, that's a sense of stress, I guess. And I guess education in that pie of life.
[00:12:28] Speaker A: Totally. And also kids may have difficulties in different subjects and maths for me was just incredibly difficult.
I hated it.
That was the first thing that I dropped in, despite what my teachers wanted me to do.
And I think two, zooming out back to what we said at the start.
Yeah, a kid might have ADHD if they. Let's say there's a quiet child and segue to all the beautiful teachers out there. There's such an incredibly hard job with understanding kids at a really individual level.
But also what could be going on because so many things can explain one thing.
[00:13:20] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:13:21] Speaker A: If a child is quiet. And I was definitely a very quiet, shy kid. Yeah, it could be adhd. It could actually be significant trauma. It could actually be maybe there's a very loud parent at home, so the child is just very kind of withdrawn and kind of pulls out away.
There could be some learning difficulties going on. There could be some speech issues going on. There's so many different things that if we very quickly go to ADHD or very quickly go to that kid isn't doing good enough or working hard enough, we box that kid up.
[00:14:06] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And as you said at the beginning, and I completely agree, doesn't mean that someone's living with something. There's so many other narratives that could come into play here. And just because someone's quiet doesn't mean that they're living with adhd. But it is important and it's very hard for. Particularly perhaps in the public system where there's so many kids to one classroom and a teacher has to navigate all that. Yeah, but, yeah, the sense around having to, I guess, sit with the individual experience. And how long is this happening over? Is it just a settling period? Yep. Or has this been for half the year?
[00:14:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:42] Speaker B: And what's happening at home? What's. What's happening in the kid's life more broadly in that pie of life?
[00:14:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
So if we kind of fast forward to a work environment, an example I often give.
And by the way, I have inattentive adhd, lots of people have been really confused hearing me have that diagnosis, simply because they see me as highly functional.
And I think it would be good to kind of tap into some notes or things that people might experience who have undiagnosed ADHD in the workplace setting. So going from the school setting to now. How to talk in the office setting.
Yeah. What are some signs that come up for you that kind of jump out?
[00:15:43] Speaker B: Yeah. So again, you know, working with adult clients living with inattentive adhd, it could be that experience around not wanting to, or, sorry. Having the challenge of socializing. That's a big one. You know, they feel like they want to, but then it feels quite overwhelming. Then there's a sense of, I don't actually want to put. Put myself out there. That sounds so draining.
There's another aspect in terms of. In the workplace, you know, there may be certain tasks that they're given, and they may go off task just to get that little bit of dopamine, maybe to come back to the original task, but then that original task seems to get set aside.
There seems to be, from what I hear of their experiences, challenges with maybe following through on Certain things or deadlines that they've been given because it can feel quite overwhelming those pressures off that and it leads to I guess a sense of paralysis.
[00:16:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:43] Speaker B: That comes up that that sense of paralysis is quite a common theme with clients that I work with with in intensive adhd.
Yeah.
[00:16:52] Speaker A: And I think just the ease of some certain things and how things can just flow really easily and other things where it just feels incredibly clunky and either you leave it to the last minute or there's just so much energy needed to get it done that you're, you're crashing out at the end of the day or you're.
And I think that's a really good kind of exploration with someone potentially with inattentive is what do you, what do you like when you get home? So after a long work day, after doing stuff that is draining, what happens? And usually it is I crash.
Usually it's I order takeaway, I crash in bed, I go kind of silent.
And that's me.
[00:17:54] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I hear a lot of that experience as well where it's the sense around, you know, the day is so full on that when they come home they don't have any energy.
[00:18:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:03] Speaker B: For themselves just to.
I mean that, that sounds like a beautiful evening but you know, if that's something that's continuous, that's also quite stressful as well in terms of financially.
[00:18:15] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, totally.
Because.
Yeah. The roll on effect to sleep, actually being able to relax like you're, you're depleting that energy so often that makes life difficult and then to spin back into.
If you've had undiagnosed ADHD for a really long time, often the person is really doubting themselves or, or they're thinking they're incompetent at their job or they're just lazy or like they become. And this doesn't happen for everyone but because that tension or that strain has been there. And then you might get remarks from, you know, family or teachers where it's like you need to work harder, you need to put. Push yourself.
You're then very self critical when you crash at home, when you forget a deadline or something. Doesn't go well.
[00:19:20] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And it's kind of what we talked about a little bit before about that internalized shame that kind of reinforces the rhetoric that someone is lazy or they don't care where actually it's just this real challenge that's happening here internally that no one else can really see or you can't put words to it maybe because there hasn't been a formal diagnosis or an investigation as to what is actually happening here.
[00:19:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And further into kind of later teens, adulthood.
Even without a diagnosis, a lot of people are aware of maybe symptoms or aware that what is difficult for them.
And that's where the masking starts, where I know it's incredibly hard for me to get stuff done. So that's why everywhere I go, I have a to do list and I have to follow it.
I remember one client struggling with the idea of ADHD because people were telling them that they have it.
And I asked them, how do you actually get stuff done? And then they gave me their phone. They actually had this awesome Excel spreadsheet that was literally like 100 tasks in there.
And I'm like, okay, well what if we deleted this Excel spreadsheet? And they just went, oh my God, I could not function. I'm like, okay, so you have these systems in place and hey, they're working.
But even if they're working, if life is incredibly draining and there's just zero in the tank and you're.
There's a lot of that kind of self criticism.
There's actually maybe an easy way to live.
[00:21:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:20] Speaker A: Maybe there's some extra support. I'm not saying it always has to be medication, but the, the wiring of your brain being different and being neurodiverse, it does make things harder. And actually it doesn't have to be that hard.
[00:21:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And it is reaching out for supports, whether it be therapeutic support, pharmacological support, supports within a workplace. So coming back to the adult in the workplace and speaking with management or someone in a HR team around, you know what, what are some things that could best support me? It may be working from home. So if we go back to overstimulated environment, maybe the office, if you have a little cube that might be.
And you have little cubes next to you, that might be quite overstimulating. Hearing everyone's voice go off at the same time. So maybe you need something like a work from home situation that maybe you may be able to organize that. Speaking with a workplace.
[00:22:21] Speaker A: Yep, yep. Just tweaking things.
Or even just having more scheduled breaks or routine within.
[00:22:29] Speaker B: Yeah, routine is very important. And as you mentioned, the calendar, it's making the internalized. Externalized.
[00:22:36] Speaker A: Yeah, Yep. And that okayness with hey, I need this can go a long way from dismantling some of that chain of I should just push harder or maybe it's me and more on I am wired differently. And yeah, I, I just do. I Just need things in a different way to succeed.
[00:23:05] Speaker B: And you know, that sends around.
I'm wired differently. I completely agree, but everyone is wired differently and everyone needs various supports, whether you're neurotypical or whether you're neurodiverse. And it's okay to have your own voice that, that you get supports that fit you.
[00:23:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
So, yeah, I think there's a really good segue then in terms of being undiagnosed for a long time, having that kind of masking and self criticism there.
What does a child and then kind of moving into adulthood miss out on by not having that recognition of being neurodiverse?
[00:23:53] Speaker B: Well, it could be missing out on certain opportunities.
[00:23:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:57] Speaker B: Because it's the sense around that, you know, I'm just lazy, so I'm just coasting, so to speak, and, and not having the supports in place to further go into fields that they may want to go on to later in life.
They may miss out on opportunities to make really meaningful connections and learn certain boundaries with other people as well.
They may miss out on opportunities in terms of. To really discover themselves, to go out into the world more generally.
It can be really debilitating having inattentive ADHD without any supports or being recognized from an earlier age.
[00:24:39] Speaker A: Yeah. As soon as that young child starts to see that all the other kids are concentrating, all the other kids are able to get things done, but their mind is scrambled, they're unable to follow instructions.
That internal shame first starts off with questioning their ability, their competence, their intelligence, but that also then very quickly moves into a social setting where you might not be able to put words together quickly in a conversation, or you might be seen as the kid that's really, really quiet and doesn't say much, doesn't say anything, or, or speaks way too much. It's almost like you go the other extreme. And so the, the ripple effects of shame, the ripple effects of Holy, there's something wrong with me.
Builds super, super quick.
[00:25:45] Speaker B: Yeah. And it also can lead to, and this isn't for everyone, but it also can lead to maladaptive coping. So using drugs to put oneself out there, because that, that's kind of a gateway to kind of make it external.
[00:25:58] Speaker A: Yep, yep. And the other thing to not. I'm not saying that this is an intentional thing that a kid that has ADHD undiagnosed, there's this missing attunement there on the child's experience.
And because of that, so yes, there's shame and self criticism, but also if a child isn't attuned to. And their emotions and their emotional experience, often too, they feel very isolated and they. And they don't feel that their.
Their emotions are even important or able to be shared.
[00:26:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Or even know what their emotions maybe are.
[00:26:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:26:48] Speaker B: Because no one's actually picking up that something's going on. They might not have the words around for themselves. So there can be this sense around the body lexithymia that may appear, which is not being able to name certain emotions that come up. So, you know, it's. It can be really, really detrimental. But again, just because someone is quiet or uses drugs recreationally does not mean that someone's living with adhd. And we always recommend as therapists to. To go get formal diagnoses from a psychologist who specializes in that or a psychiatrist if there is any suspicions of that. But definitely someone in a psychotherapeutic realm or social work realm can. Who's a practicing counselor there can support you with. With some of the symptoms and perhaps lead you in the right direction.
[00:27:43] Speaker A: I guess the analogy I use around shame is shame is actually externally thrown on us, whether, again, it's intentional or not.
If you have a difficulty getting an assignment done and then a teacher kind of says you should work harder, that is shame. Right.
And yeah. So that. That kid is struggling to get that assignment done. They have this kind of undiagnosed problem, but they then blame themselves because of that shame.
The shame then builds. The masking. The shame then. Then kind of validates the need to be different.
[00:28:31] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:32] Speaker A: And push.
[00:28:33] Speaker B: Yeah. And creates this real heavy mask a lot of people wear.
[00:28:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
Yeah. It becomes a really slippery slope in many different kind of friendships, romantic relationships that that person's brain.
It's like this kind of automatic drag to that must be my fault. I'm doing something wrong.
[00:29:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Whereas, you know, that, that question of rather than, you know, you should be, rather than how could I be, you know, what are you needing for support or how could I support you best? I mean, they're very different statements.
[00:29:14] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
And so I don't think there's a lot kind of talked about in social media related to the emotional issues or the shame that often isn't really talked about. With adhd.
A lot of professionals move into all right, here's some tips and tricks around getting things done.
Here's the 10 best tips to kind of follow through.
But see, if we're not capturing the. The fullness of the experience of someone with adhd, we're just back on that good old train of how do we do it better.
[00:29:56] Speaker B: Yes. And that point, you know, those. The tips. And I'm glad that it helps. You know, some people out there and feels like that their experiences are heard, but everyone lives in their own emotional experiences and even your diverse experiences. So much is a spectrum.
[00:30:12] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:30:13] Speaker B: And what may work for someone may not work for someone else. And it's really important to, I guess, sit down and. And work with someone with your own experience. Yeah.
[00:30:25] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. And tapping into basically every client's brain should be attuned to in terms of how do you get things done or what are the challenges for you? And it could actually be a learning style then. You know, back in the. In my days, oh, my gosh.
There was no such thing as learning styles. It was you. You look at the blackboard, you write your notes, you listen to the teacher, you do the thing, and that's it.
But there's so many different ways that people who lean more in.
I learn through conversation or I learn through picking up a tool and using it rather than reading, rather than just writing notes.
[00:31:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, definitely. And different ways of learning is a really good way of talking about how people can learn new skills as well and feel comfortable in a learning environment.
[00:31:34] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:36] Speaker B: You know, such as hands on. I believe it's Monty.
Sorry. Or.
[00:31:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:41] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, there's education systems like that that, you know, may work better for a child.
[00:31:47] Speaker A: Yep. 100. Or adult.
Yeah. Okay.
I'm just gonna hit pause because I feel like we're covering everything.
That's a good thing.
Oh, my God, look at us.
That's amazing.
It's 22.
[00:32:06] Speaker B: Oh, wow.
Time flies with you. Heaven first.
[00:32:10] Speaker A: Yeah, it should.
[00:32:13] Speaker B: I feel like we've covered adults.
The masking, the.
I guess I don't want to add a tip into, like, you know, the tip should become sah.
[00:32:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:32:29] Speaker B: Someone who, like therapists who focus on emotional experience.
[00:32:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:36] Speaker B: Rather than focusing on, I guess, the behavioral symptomology of.
[00:32:40] Speaker A: Yeah. It might be good to look at comorbidity.
Yeah. Because I think we touched on. It might not actually be anything. It might actually be this. Because then there could be multiple things going on. Yeah. Cool. Okay.
Yeah.
So jumping back in one really good scenario I kind of build, which we've already kind of touched on, is a shy child.
Could be a shy child.
Could be an anxious child. Could be a child with kind of family violence at home. Could be someone with adhd.
But also multiple things can be happening at the same time.
[00:33:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And again, just because someone's quiet or they may be showing symptoms that are inattentive. Adhd, like esque, doesn't mean that they're living with that and can be.
You know, what's happening at home? Is there a trauma background or intergenerational trauma? Trauma.
If we look at culture, you know, is. Is there a trauma from a cultural perspective?
You know, what's happening in terms of maybe there's some depression there or some anxiety or no fears around starting in a new environment, if it's a new school.
[00:34:18] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I think part of the issue
[00:34:22] Speaker B: around
[00:34:25] Speaker A: maybe going to a counsel sometimes is as soon as someone kind of says, I have adhd, that that's the problem.
But it might not be the case.
There might be other lingering things that the person needs to talk about because they have their diagnosis, they actually are medicated now.
But there's other things getting in the way.
And, yeah, I've done it at times, and I've heard truckload of clients who've seen therapists where they get locked into one thing but don't really pay attention to the whole narrative.
[00:35:08] Speaker B: Yeah. And there's such a broad picture, and I feel like that might be doing me a bit of a disservice if that is honed onto more. More specifically. Yes. The structures and things that. That need to be put in place. But, yeah, at the end of the day, it's a human experience.
[00:35:24] Speaker A: Yep, 100%. And I think, too, that one thing I say to lots of clients who may have been to counselors before and not received the help, or they've been to a social worker where power has been abused, or that certain things have not occurred that should have in terms of ethics, in terms of kind of the right thing from a social justice point of view, I think there's a lot that social workers, specifically psychologists, need to own, and that is our history of thinking we know what's right and really hammering something without really listening to the client, without actually working with the person.
And if that happens, the person isn't really getting the support that they need.
So I definitely acknowledge that the history of social work, the history of psychology, psychiatry, mental health, the history is full of abuse, full of power misuse.
And I think there's a lot. I think there's a few episodes of that around thinking we're getting it right but doing the client wrong.
[00:36:55] Speaker B: And again, it comes back to the human experience checking in with the client and seeing them more, more broadly for what they are as humans.
[00:37:04] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. We're complex beings. And I think often a yes and is super important. Yes, you have adhd, but you have.
Yeah, yeah. You have a shitload of trauma at the same time. Both of those exist at the same time. Both of those and many others can really be multi layered in why you're struggling in that classroom, in that office, in relationships.
[00:37:31] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's such a fine line for a lot of people that, that come in where I see that there's a lot of people that perhaps talk into that, you know, they've been told they may be living with ADHD but don't want to get a label put on them for that same reason that I'm a human and I, you know, I have many other experiences and then there's other folk that come in that really want, want the label and then I have to guide them in a way for formal diagnosis because it would, I guess, bring meaning to their lived experience.
[00:38:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:38:03] Speaker B: So it can be very powerful for a lot of people, but it could also be boxing for other people too.
[00:38:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
So it comes down to clients personal choice, their struggle, their narrative,
[00:38:18] Speaker B: but also back to listening to the client as to what it is they, they're wanting and needing.
[00:38:23] Speaker A: Yeah. And if they can name some steps that they would like to take forward that is around their anxiety rather than adhd, it could be around building confidence and reducing shame. That goes so incredibly far for people rather than hear some tips and tricks. Sometimes it really depends on the struggle that person's going through.
[00:38:51] Speaker B: Yeah. And, and again, tips and tricks, it's great that it works for, you know, some people out there, but those tips and tricks may not work for everyone. And so, you know, do see someone that can capture your whole, your experience because your experience will be different to someone else's experience.
[00:39:10] Speaker A: It's a complex game, this, this therapy.
[00:39:12] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:39:15] Speaker A: I think that's part of the reason why I love it so much is it's about stories and it's about tuning to what the person needs the most help with capturing that with them and then laying out a plan that they can see works for them, lines up with, with their problem and, and then checking in. I think therapy as a whole is clients and therapists coming together, understanding that story and working alongside each other and it, and it feeling like it's working.
[00:39:55] Speaker B: Yeah. And that, and that's, and going back to a little bit about, I guess, the different rhetorics around, you know, what do you need support with rather than, you know, you should be. Yeah. I guess that could even be applied in the therapy room as well, where some therapists were Saying, know you should be doing.
[00:40:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:40:12] Speaker B: You know, I've had clients come in saying, you know, I. I felt like it was quite directed by my therapist at the time rather than it being collaborative. So you bring up a really good point in terms of, you know, it should be that continual check in.
[00:40:24] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
And so maybe you've never been to therapy before or maybe you've not had a great experience in therapy.
I totally understand the difficulty in reaching out for help, but especially if you've tried before and it hasn't worked, there are therapists out there who do focus on neurodiversity specifically, who also have neurodiversity as an identity for themselves. And I'd really encourage people to source someone or find someone that they can fit with on a kind of an energy level, personality level, but also that you feel they get you because that's really needed for the. For the client to get some hope that it's going to work. Not just some book off a shelf that people go, chapter one, chapter two.
[00:41:34] Speaker B: And it's not cookie cover.
[00:41:35] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Another episode that we could expand for hours and hours, but that's okay.
Thank you for your time. It's always been great.
[00:41:45] Speaker B: I appreciate it.
[00:41:46] Speaker A: Yeah. And if you are wanting some further support with neurodiversity or you have a friend who you think is struggling, please encourage them to reach out, have a conversation and get the support that they need.
And at Safe Place, we continue to be in your corner and be the place that's safe for you and have a good one. Bye for now.
[00:42:13] Speaker B: Bye.
