Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:07] Speaker B: To the Safe Place Therapy YouTube channel and podcast. My name is Stuart Sheridan and I am one of the owners and of Safe Place Therapy and I'm a mental health social worker.
Today we're talking about narcissism in a relationship. And today we have Ender Doyle joining us. So welcome, Ender.
[00:00:28] Speaker A: Hey, Stuart. Good to be here.
[00:00:31] Speaker B: Yeah. And before we start out, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners on the land in which we meet today. And we are recording today on the lands of the Kulin Nation. And we always like to pay our respect to elders past, present and emerging.
So, yeah, today is a juicy topic related to narcissism in a relationship and kind of from a counseling perspective, what we kind of see as issues arising when narcissism is present and then some of the kind of flow on issues that we might talk about or work with in a couple's context when those issues are rising up.
So I guess at a really basic level there's a lot of hysteria and worry about, oh shit, maybe my partner hasn't has narcissism. But I'm wondering, Ender, is there certain things that you notice related to a couple when narcissism is happening or. Yeah. What's your kind of first observations of narcissism in a couple?
[00:01:40] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, you're right. First of all, it's become just in the past year or so it's become a term I'm hearing almost weekly from clients, both individuals and couples.
Um, I have individuals coming to me saying, well, I think I might be a narcissist because my partner says I'm a narcissist.
I also have couples suspecting each other of narcissism. So it is, it has become a very widely used word and I'm not sure that there's a really equivalent depth of understanding of the word, you know, in terms of. So broadly speaking, simply, we're looking at traits like, and I'm talking about deep seated traits, not just what we call situational behaviors, traits around grandiosity, a sense of entitlement, complete lack of accountability.
A very important one is a lack of empathy.
Sometimes you get narcissism, though, without the grandiosity.
You get what could be termed vulnerable narcissism or covert narcissism.
So similar sense of self importance underneath. And my needs matter more than everybody else's needs and because I'm special, similar underlying sort of drivers. But on the surface that person could be presenting as anxious or self effacing. And so on the main sort of Modus of control with that might be guilt, you know, as opposed to the more bullying, domineering thing we typically might associate with narcissism.
Yeah, yeah.
[00:03:36] Speaker B: So maybe before we even go through kind of narcissism is maybe we need to really be clear about what, what is actually within a relationship or kind of a normal issues, I guess, that happened in a relationship that we really need to be careful about using the word narcissism. So for instance, my partner can be angry at me. That doesn't mean they're a narcissist, right?
[00:04:04] Speaker A: No. That probably means they're a human.
They're a human in a relationship.
[00:04:09] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:04:12] Speaker A: No, no, no, no. And let's be clear as well. We're all on the spectrum of narcissism.
Okay, let's be really clear about that.
And it's not always easy to see because narcissistic traits are quite stigmatized. They're not the sort of things we announce, they're the kind of things we hide. But we're all on the spectrum. So we can find things in common with the narcissist in ourselves if we're willing to look honestly, whether it or grandiose. But we can find those self serving drivers in all of us.
[00:04:45] Speaker B: That's a really good point. And, and I think maybe a question to put out to listeners or people viewing is if you thinking about the word narcissism or you know, trickiness in the relationship, maybe a really big open question here is what is your struggle in the relationship? So maybe part narcissism, like we're obviously talking about that today, but you can actually be crystal clear about what breaks down or what makes your relationship hard?
That and describing that might actually be a better thing for you than bringing out this big red narcissism because we have to be careful with language.
[00:05:29] Speaker A: I'm totally with you, Stuart, on that.
You know, really, we could do the same work without ever using the word. Yeah, because what I'm interested in, you know, rather than labeling and pathologizing your partner, for example, what, what, what's the dance that you're in and what dance are you in and what is it doing to you? Particularly if we're specifically analyzing whether we're in a relationship with a narcissist.
Is this relationship one where you have to sacrifice huge parts of yourself just to stay in it?
Is this a relationship where you spend inordinate amounts of time and effort managing your partner's moods?
Is there a sense that their needs always take priority and I think, really crucially, is there ever a sense that they're willing to be accountable for their shortcomings or, you know, misdeeds in a relationship? Because one of the really defining things with a narcissist is it's not their fault, you know, but as you say, how do we separate that from a normal relationship? Because aren't we all defensive at times in relationships? Aren't we all slow to take responsibility for our part in whatever's going wrong?
Of course we are. We're human beings. We have egos that want to defend themselves, you know, so it's not that easy to be able to, you know, to separate somebody who is perhaps going through a hard time, who's under a lot of pressure, who's feeling threatened, from someone who is sort of textbook narcissist. You know, I mean, what's the difference between someone who has a really high level of self regard, self respect, self confidence, and they're not afraid to let people know it? I mean, is that grandiosity, is that narcissism or is that just.
[00:07:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:28] Speaker A: You know, being honest? I think the big difference is that person doesn't achieve their needs at the expense of others.
And that person is concerned if they're hurting others because the empathy is there, you know, so you're looking at being willing to be successful at other people's expense.
That's leaning towards narcissism. Refusing to take accountability. And a real lack of empathy would be huge warning signs, you know?
[00:07:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And that. So if narcissism exists, that pattern of a lack of empathy or a lack of ownership follows through many problems, many different fights, many different situations. It's not just, whoop, they got angry at, at me for not taking the bins out.
It. There's actually a bigger picture here of a lack of empathy or a lack of being able to sit with their partner's feelings.
[00:08:30] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And again. And again, we could also say, you know, to your point earlier, how do we separate what you might call normal relationship dynamics or even healthy relationship dynamics from, you know, narcissistic dynamics? That lack of empathy, again, that could be a coping mechanism for somebody who's absolutely not a narcissist, because it could be part of a shutdown. I mean, we go into fight or flight. Don't we generally fight, flight or freeze. You know, so it could be a simple defense, you know, that somebody appears to lack empathy because they have had to become numb because it's their way of coping with the situation. They're dealing with, in that moment. But again, with narcissism, you're looking for a continuity of these behaviors over a long time.
So that sort of a person who becomes numb and distant, that's super common. That's super common in almost any couple I work with.
One of them may have that as a go to place where they go to when they're upset or feeling the situation is out of control or feeling unheard or unseen.
They can go into a place that looks like there's a complete lack of empathy.
That same person can be very different three days later when the ice has melted. And, you know, and then there can be accountability and empathy. So let's not jump to conclusions is what I'm saying. Let's not jump to conclusions.
[00:10:05] Speaker B: Yeah. And I guess what we're hinting at there too is in the first, you know, one to two to three sessions is can both parties, both partners turn up in that session, own some of their shit, like, own some of the stuff that they need to work on. And then when you actually start to provide some of those tools or language concepts for them to start, you know, working through stuff, do they actually go away and try it? Do they actually. Do you actually see the wheels turning? But if it's not turning from one side, maybe there are broader issues here. Maybe that pattern, you know, becomes a bit more visible if they're not willing to try.
[00:10:52] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I think you, you'll even see that before they leave the room if, if, if you suggest a strategy, a tool, a different way of doing something. So no matter how minor, someone with high narcissistic tendencies.
And I don't. I'd actually rather use that language of narcissistic tendencies rather than calling someone a narcissist.
[00:11:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:16] Speaker A: Because generally it's not either or, you know.
[00:11:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:19] Speaker A: In all honesty, someone who is a classic grandiose narcissist is very unlikely to be in a room with a therapist or a couple's counselor because from that person's point of view, they know way more than the couple's therapist. Yeah. They're pretty much unteachable. So they're not going to be in your room because you wouldn't be good enough for them anyway and you have nothing to show them or help them with. So.
However, of course, we will meet people who are high in grandiose traits. Sorry, in narcissistic traits.
So what I mean by. You'll see it before they even leave the room. You'll see a sort of closing off once I start Suggesting, okay, we've met a couple of times. Now it's time to actually try something different because what you've been doing isn't working. Okay, so let me introduce A, B and C.
Generally pretty simple, you know, not demanding a whole lot of effort, you know, but you'll see a sort of closing off and a tightening up and maybe a look of dismissal or skepticism from someone who's more high in narcissism. And you'll get the sense this person really is, you know, just a little too good for this or, you know, but again, you can't jump to conclusions because it could just, it could be a feeling. Look, we, I feel we've tried everything and now this couples therapist in front of me is suggesting something else and nothing else has worked. So why will this.
So we gotta be slow to jump into conclusions and sort of, you know, having a sort of cookie cutter approach to diagnosing people.
But yeah, both people have to get on board. Both people have to be willing to try doing different things and both people absolutely have to be accountable for their role because, you know, being in a narcissistic relationship takes two people, doesn't it? You know, so I want to, for the non narcissistic partner I'm interested in, what is it, you know, about you that, you know, allows you to sort of go along and keep the peace and appease or humor this person in whatever ways you have been? And what is stopping you from stepping up and asserting your needs? You know, we need to go there, we need to ask those questions.
[00:13:45] Speaker B: Yeah, because I guess, you know, the bigger picture here. So let's say the, they've been together for some time.
That pattern of a lack of empathy or the pattern of it's your fault really kind of starts to, you know, lessen the identity of the, of the survivor of narcissism and that person that is facing that assault and that, you know, diminished presence of themselves would take so much courage to then be firm about their needs or be really clear with them, even in couples therapy. But, you know, alone at home, I'm sure there must be thinking of, why would I do that? I'm going to rock the boat. Or they're not going to care anyway, so what's the point?
[00:14:35] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, and you're right when you.
I'm not sure exactly what you said there, but you're talking about loss of identity, at least as I heard you. And I think that that's the core of the price of living with a narcissist. There's a real loss of identity.
The narcissist sort of thrives on wrong footing. You, whether it's gaslighting or whether it's being very hot and cold with sort of affection, attention, you know, there's a pattern of sort of building you up and taking you down. And building you up and taking you down very much. You know, in line with what would be called trauma bonding, where it's almost like they're rewiring your brain to crave approval, you know, so. So there's a real loss of identity. One of the things a person needs to do and it takes time is, you know, you know, either whether they're traveling with a narcissist who's working with them, you know, in other words, someone who's not terribly high on the narcissist spectrum, but, you know, willing to take some accountability and go through some emotional pain in the name of keeping their relationship. So whether they're staying or whether they're going, they're going to need to build up that sense of self again and trust in self. Trust in one's own instincts.
[00:15:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:00] Speaker A: So, yeah, sorry, I can't remember what the question was.
[00:16:03] Speaker B: No, that's okay. That's okay. We're just talking about. Yeah, the survivor or the. The non narcissistic person.
Lack of identity. But that.
[00:16:12] Speaker A: That you were saying. Sorry to talk over you. You were saying, how on earth does a person suddenly start standing up when they live with years for a person like that? And there's such a corrosion and erosion of sense of self, even one starts to doubt one's own perceptions and instincts. So, yeah, it's an excellent question. The short answer is you got to get support. You got to get help. Okay.
That doesn't have to be from me or from a therapist. It could be family, it could be friends, But I think you're going to need backup.
[00:16:46] Speaker B: So, yeah, to kind of follow that same path of things that happen in that relationship we talked about lack of lack of ownership or lack of empathy and then trying tools to encourage that work and dare I say, push the couple to test things out.
Maybe it might be good now to. To check other stuff that's important. So if narcissism exists, what are some things from a therapy point of view should we kind of tackle or raise in session?
[00:17:19] Speaker A: The big one for me is what has this done to your sense of self, which we have been talking about? You know, this corrosion of sense of self, doubting reality.
They're the big ones. So we've already Touched on that.
What do you think, Stuart?
[00:17:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I think the reality checking is also a good one too, in terms of what are some situations that happen in your relationship? Like let's, let's pull apart a recent fight or the dance that you do, but then actually check in with what actually a healthy relationship should look like. Because yeah, if they've been in that relationship for a really, really long time, maybe they actually don't know what's unhealthy. Or maybe, you know, there's these internal lines of, oh, that's just them. Or, you know, maybe that narcissist partner, you know, uses the line, you made me do it type scenario where it's, that's the normal. So I've got no comparison. What are some other things you think are important to cover? If narcissism is there, first thing that.
[00:18:32] Speaker A: Comes to mind is safety.
Even physical safety, psychological safety.
If narcissism is there, there's every possibility that the non narcissistic partner does not feel safe to fully disclose to a couple's therapist what's really going on.
So as a professional, I've got to assume that that's a possibility.
So with that in mind, I tend to invite couples to come individually also, and that's fairly standard practice with a lot of couples therapists, is I might see the couple together first and then see a partner one, partner two, separately. And that should ideally create as safe a space as possible for the non narcissistic partner to open up about what the real hurts and injuries are, in a way perhaps that they would not feel free for fear of consequences after the appointment with their narcissistic partner. And one of the sort of textbook traits of a narcissist is they can be terribly charming outside of the home, very charming. A lot of non narcissistic victims of narcissists have told me, and I quote, if you met them, you would really like them, you would want to go for a drink with them.
And I believe them.
So safety and the extent of the hurt and the extent of the compromises that must be made to live with this narcissist. But also I think we have to ask ourselves, to the non narcissistic partner, what was it earlier in your life that primed you that you know, may have led you to believe that this is okay? You know, you know, it's pretty common, not just in my work, but in my life where people have said to me, this is the third person in a row I've had as a partner who's like this, who seemed really lovely at first. So it's not like picking really nasty partners. They seemed charming, lovely. And I ended up, you know, being emotionally, verbally abused, controlled, whatever it is.
How is it I'm picking these people?
So, you know, I've heard people say this, as I say inside my work, outside my work. My theory is that you're not necessarily picking them, but what you are doing is you're walking past the red flags that another person would have gone, I'm out of here. You know, these people are. Tend to be very, very clever. These are very skilled manipulators we're dealing with here.
So they put out testers. They may not even know they're doing it, but they put out testers. They cross little boundaries, you know, for example, yelling abuse or accusing, you know, or gaslighting.
And it's almost as if that's a little sort of test. And if that can be passed and brushed over quite easily, then things can accelerate, you know.
So I want to ask, why is it that some people will turn a blind eye to the red flags and others absolutely won't? Yeah, I'm not sure if that answered your question, Stuart.
Answer. Your question is safety. And to really assess that, I need to see both people individually.
I would also add to that, as we said at the start, we're not talking about black and white. This person is a narcissist. This person is not.
So generally, if I'm seeing people, we're not talking about a textbook grandiose narcissist because that person is not going to show up.
We're talking about someone who's potentially high on narcissistic traits. So seeing that person individually also gives me an opportunity to work with them because they may be willing to just drop some of their narcissistic defenses and allow a little vulnerability through to the point where we can work together. They may be willing to do that more easily when their partner is not around, too, because let's face it, the narcissism is a defense. It's a coping mechanism. So let's keep a little bit of empathy because something has made this person form. At some point, we can assume this was necessary for this person simply thrive and be safe. So let's keep a little bit of empathy there for that person, too.
[00:23:13] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And you like what I like to do sometimes with a lot of people with potential narcissism is actually acknowledge that the need, but also the success of using that too, might be in the. In the Workplace maybe, or protecting them, you know, in the, in a family situation, you know, growing up, that, that hey, maybe this actually has been really helpful to some degree.
But also, hey, how is it actually not serving you now, like just you. How is this making things hard for you? The person with narcissistic traits. Because often they do feel lonely on the inside or nothing feels good enough for them, for themselves in terms of their actions, but also everyone else upsets them. So there's, there's this losing sign for them to.
[00:24:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Yeah, yeah.
I like what you said is how, how has this served you? Because let's face it, it serves people well in. Well, politics is the first domain that comes to mind.
I think narcissism must be a huge advantage when we look at the most power, powerful people in the world at the moment. So how has it served you?
But you use the term loneliness as well, which I really like that you use that, you know, with respect to people who are high in narcissism.
I don't know, maybe I'm an old romantic or something, but I do cling to the belief that we all crave connection.
I really do.
No matter how we present, even if we present as somebody who does not want connection or doesn't care for it, doesn't value it.
I, I believe that we do and I believe the narcissist does too.
And unfortunately for them, they've developed coping mechanisms that are probably way out of date that may, as you said, have been applicable and maybe even useful or necessary at one stage and they're not anymore. And they do the opposite. They drive people away and leave actually more vulnerable. Yeah, I think just changing our say to a covert narcissist or vulnerable narcissist.
One of the things that I've, that I try to do with that situation. And it's more likely that we will see covert narcissists in therapy, I feel.
But it's trying to allow that.
Trying to get them to allow that respecting and catering to their partner's needs and feelings doesn't negate their own. That there is room for both.
It's not a zero sum game. Yeah, there's a sense in the narcissist because envy, I mean envy is a, literally a textbook criterion for narcissism in the dsm, in the diagnostic bible. And not necessarily envy of others. It can either be the need to feel envied or envy of others.
[00:26:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:31] Speaker A: But that particular trait seems to me to lead people into thinking if, if they're getting it. It means I'm not.
And that's simply a falsehood, especially when it comes to love. You know, it's not like a finite sort of pie chart that if you get a big segment, I get less. It doesn't work like that. Yeah, yeah.
I also think normalizing narcissistic narcissism, you know, as I said at the outset, we're all on the spectrum.
Even as a therapist, outing myself in terms of some of the narcissistic traits I might see in a couple, overtly saying, yes, yes, I know how that feels, that that's been me, you know, and, you know, hopefully that brings a sense of relief and safety to people, because it has been me, you know.
[00:27:27] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
And I guess a nice little segue there too, that if you are with a partner who you're really struggling with or. Or maybe these traits are happening, it's actually really okay to have an individual session away from, like, actually maybe not engage with couples counseling first, actually engage in individual counseling to start explore feelings. If you don't, either. If you don't think that the partner will engage, or couples counseling just doesn't even happen, or there are these safety issues, or you do feel that you need to connect with someone first to talk this through, that can also be really helpful.
[00:28:12] Speaker A: I. I think you. You always get a different angle. It's a different dynamic. So as a couple's therapist, I always find it helpful. But one of the other things that I was thinking as you were speaking was someone who's been with a narcissistic partner for a long time, or maybe they've had a series of narcissistic partners.
I have to wonder, do they even really know in their heart what a healthy relationship might look like or feel like?
So that's where an individual session could be very useful, too, to try to put a person in touch with what they could expect reasonably, you know, given that relationships generally involve a certain amount of struggle, certain amount of conflict, a lot of compromise, not always getting, you know, given all of that, but what they could expect. Do you know what I mean?
[00:29:07] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. And, yeah, maybe that is a nice kind of. Then flow on to talk. You know, we often do get individuals coming to us who've, you know, they've actually left a narcissistic partner or. Or maybe they're actually still being triggered or. Or issues are happening in their current relationship who. With someone who isn't a narcissist. But that history that, you know, kind of Survival of. Of that really horrible relationship is. Still has ripple effects, still has issues. Is there any kind of common themes that come up from a survivor perspective?
[00:29:47] Speaker A: Oh, well, I mean, what you just said at the end there, we.
We carry over, you know, our learnings from the previous relationship. So what used to signify domineering, controlling, even cruel behavior, it doesn't necessarily mean that now. You know, as I said earlier on, an awful lot of the behaviors that would be associated with narcissist are behaviors that perfectly healthy people do. You know, it's just they're not doing them all the time, and they're not combined with a complete lack of empathy and accountability, and they're not sustained regardless of the situation.
The person who was behaving narcissistically yesterday or last week, may this week be full of contrition and empathy and openness to look at themselves and how their actions were not at all helpful and could have been hurtful. So. But the person who's been in those scarring relationships carries those scars. And in the early phase of a new relationship, they got to learn to trust again, and they got to. They got to learn, even on a somatic level, that this is not the same person, you know, but in a sense, don't we all do that? I mean, we bring in our early developmental relationships into adult relationships. We have to learn, this is not my mother. This is not my father, you know, so we're all doing that work all the time.
But I think therapy can certainly expedite that movement to realizing, no, I can trust this person.
But a person who really has been through the wars with a narcissist, it's fair, even with the best of therapy, to allow that.
This has to take some time.
And ideally, their partners can be brought into that journey, and their partners can, you know, be on board with the fact that, look, the first year of our relationship, I may struggle simply to feel trusted that I'm not some kind of exploitative sort of, you know what I mean? Person who's here to take advantage of my new partner, who I'm crazy about.
So I think for the person who's not the survivor, this person is just sort of the partner of a survivor of narcissism in the early stages of relationship, be flexible, be gentle, and allow that trust takes time to develop, and to some extent, trust has to be earned.
[00:32:30] Speaker B: Yeah, Yeah. I think there's a real little segue I wanted to kind of go through and then come back. You know, when someone is in a relationship with A narcissist, whether it be the cruelty or coldness, neglect or the issues that are happening there, often what I find in an individual session is that person has felt that neglect, usually in childhood also, or usually there's a. There's a meanness or bullying or something else that comes up with that. Right. It's almost like it pulls that childhood stuff up as well, which. Which makes it even heavier. I call it. I call it the lasagna of shit.
[00:33:16] Speaker A: Right?
[00:33:16] Speaker B: Like it's all now connected and layered, dismantled.
[00:33:22] Speaker A: I'm going to use that shit. Okay.
I think it'll catch on.
[00:33:28] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:33:31] Speaker A: I mean, that's what I was saying earlier when I was saying, why is it one person walks past these red flags and another doesn't?
Why is it one person stays in a relationship for years with a narcissist?
[00:33:44] Speaker B: One.
[00:33:44] Speaker A: Another person would have run for the hills after a couple of weeks. You know, I say a couple of weeks. That's not accurate. Actually, myself, it's probably a few months before the real behaviors start to show. But I guess I meant a couple of weeks of, you know, dealing with overtly narcissistic behaviors. And I think the answer to that, as you say, goes back, back, back, back. Where did. Where were you primed to think that you had to subjugate your own needs to be with someone else? Were you primed to be able to be manipulated like this, to not quite believe your own reality, your own feelings?
And that probably goes back. You know, so many of us learned to be sort of invisible, you know, as kids, as a way to stay safe, stay under the radar. You know, I think that sort of early life can lead to somebody who could be vulnerable to narcissism.
Obviously, you know, we're talking about, you know, the go to would be a fundamental lack of self worth, lack of belief that my feelings matter as much as the next person's. Because ultimately, to stay with a narcissist is diminishing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. As I said earlier, it's a shrinking, you know. Yeah. And I think for me, you know, if a person was saying, is my partner a narcissist? I'd be asking, how much of you do you have to hide or leave out of the picture in order to stay with this person? You know, how much do you have to pretend your own needs don't matter so much to be with this person?
And then going back to what we were talking about, like, do people even know what a healthy relationship looks like? Well, I. I think that Image of sort of shrinking. Well, the opposite of that is expansion. So I think a really good sign of a very healthy relationship is does it expand me, you know, does it make me sort of larger in the world, you know?
Yeah.
[00:35:58] Speaker B: So, yeah.
[00:35:59] Speaker A: Make my life sort of larger. And do I do the same for them? Can I do the same for them, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:36:06] Speaker B: And the real kind of, I guess, horrible irony, you know, with a survivor of narcissism growing up with maybe nastiness from parents or that and then facing that in the, in the relationship and the narcissist themselves being in that relationship. Often there are still similar core issues there of neglect from family or, you know, if they actually just gave therapy a chance, if they actually cracked through to some vulnerability and some ownership, there actually can be similar stories here that that couple then can connect on. Right. It can actually be a new, different relationship where there's the similarities of, of pain.
[00:36:54] Speaker A: Right, Yeah, I agree. The same conditions that can produce someone who is potentially a victim of narcissism.
[00:37:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:37:04] Speaker A: Are those that can produce a narcissist.
[00:37:06] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:37:07] Speaker A: Because the narcissist could be someone who's simply modeling that.
Let's say there was a toxic parental behavior, you know, that was very high in narcissism, which is particularly sad.
It's almost off topic to talk about, you know, narcissistic parents. It's maybe another episode, but it's particularly heartbreaking when parents put their own needs way ahead of their children's needs. You know, the children are there to serve a parent's needs, you know, but those same conditions can form a narcissist. Yeah, yeah, I agree.
[00:37:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, totally.
So, yeah, we've, we've, I think we've kind of scratched the surface here and there's so many other bits to narcissism and how that plays out and, and different maybe behaviors that come out that people see. Yeah. So I just want to be really clear here that we're, we're, we're talking at kind of a really basic level, a kind of concept level, but there's always more to talk about related to, you know, attachment issues, trauma, you know, where pain comes from and how that kind of comes into a relationship that might not be narcissism or might be narcissism.
But back to that kind of original question to viewers. Is that that struggle in your relationship that you're, you're facing and that that keeps happening as a pattern.
I guess the kind of follow up thing there is how Long are you willing to wait for your partner to change?
How willing are you? You know, that that glimmer of hope sometimes can actually be, you know, actually a bit hopeless.
[00:38:55] Speaker A: Right.
[00:38:55] Speaker B: Because we're clinging on to something to work, but maybe it might not, but.
[00:39:01] Speaker A: We need to do it. Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's talk about that for a second. Like when, when is it time to leave?
[00:39:10] Speaker B: Yeah, no.
[00:39:12] Speaker A: Because like you said, we're skimming the service, but if we're really skimming the service, like if you were to do a, a 10 second Google search, you know, for advice on having a partner who's a narcissist, the advice would be leave, you know, but I guess what we're talking about here is more people we would see and as we've said times, we're unlikely to see full blown textbook grandiose narcissists.
So in terms of, you know, when to stay, when to leave, I think at the heart of living with someone who's really genuinely high in narcissism, or we've ruled out other issues like, you know, is it a skills deficit or is it narcissism, is it trauma or is it narcissism? Is it situational that this person is highly stressed at the moment and threatened, or is a narcissist? So let's say we've ruled out those sort of suspects and we've come to terms that this person's in a relationship with a narcissist. Someone who's really has shown little or no capability of empathy or accountability.
Quite manipulative, quite controlling.
I want to get to the sense with the victim of that, that there is ultimately there's an abandonment of self. You know, I've talked about a diminishing of self. There's an abandonment of self or even a betrayal of self. You know, that's at the heart of staying with an audience. And I want to sort of invite them to ask themselves, how long am I willing to keep doing this? You know, to keep sort of abandoning these deeper core parts of myself.
But again, to do that, as you alluded to earlier, how does a person do that alone? And I guess I'm saying don't do it alone. Do a good therapist, Incorporate trusted friends or family.
Do your reading. There's some great resources out there now on narcissism.
One book off the top of my head, it would be Debbie Mirza. I forget the name of it, but Debbie Mirza is her name.
That's more about coping with surviving vulnerable narcissism.
But there's a lot out there.
[00:41:40] Speaker B: So to kind of, I guess wrap all this together, it might be good to just recap because yeah, we've talked about lots of different interesting points here. So first off, sometimes it's good to park the word narcissism. We can have it in the back of our minds, like that's okay as a prompt or maybe something we've read. If we've, you know, having difficulties in a relationship, it's often really good to tap into the dance, the issues, the struggles that both parties are facing or the individual is facing if they come to an individual session to really unpack the dance.
But then also what's quite critical is the willingness to change or the willingness to work through those things. And that that's the real threshold. I guess as therapists we begin with if they're willing and trying.
Actually probably not narcissism.
[00:42:35] Speaker A: Right.
[00:42:35] Speaker B: Actually probably not something that is long term pattern. But I guess to be really tricky there though is it can't be just this half ass trying. Well, I tried, you know, like there actually has to be this substantial effort of I care about my partner.
This is clearly really a problem that we need to face and together working through that. And then if those problems start to emerge where they're not tackling that or no, it's not my fault type type scenario, then those patterns need to be addressed and we need to dig deeper in terms of okay, when the door is closed, what is happening behind that that really, really needs to be addressed and really reality checked as not okay in a relationship.
Yeah, this has been, I think really interesting and you hinted at another episode, Andrew, because I think it's needed because you know, we haven't even talked about like a father son relationship or a family dynamic with narcissism is involved. And you know, there's not a whole lot out there, I think in terms of the family situation or other relationships where narcissism is involved. So that could be worth exploring and digging through.
But for all those listening, it's a pretty safe guess that maybe you know someone you're worried about in their relationship, you're worried about your relationship or there's actually some internal bubblings going on of holy crap. Maybe, maybe I need to address something here. And if that's the case on any of those levels, please share this Please like or comment.
Reach out to services and thank you and for your time. It's been a real pleasure.
[00:44:34] Speaker A: Thanks. Absolute pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. Looking forward to those extra episodes.
[00:44:39] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
And if you'd like to know more about us, please visit us at our website. Website safeplacetherapy. Com.
Like our video?
Reach out to us if you'd like to. And rest assured that Safeplace is your safe place to talk. Thanks and bye for now.
