Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:07] Speaker B: Today we're doing an episode on workplace stress. My name is Stuart Sheridan and I am one of the co owners and founders of Safe Place Therapy and I'm also a mental health social worker. So today, yeah, we're talking a bit about workplace stress. What it's about, what are some of the presentations that we often see in a counseling setting? And today we have Mary and Andreas, who is a psychologist with Safe Place Therapy. So welcome, Mary.
[00:00:37] Speaker A: Thanks, James. Really good to be here.
[00:00:39] Speaker B: Great.
So I guess maybe it will be good to kind of debunk some of the ideas that maybe people think counseling is about, because I think maybe a lot of people in the community who've never done counseling before might think it's just for those people who have, like, significant mental health issues or have a diagnosis of depression or anxiety.
But there's some much more out there in terms of what's possible in a counseling room, right?
[00:01:08] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
I think there is a bit of a perception that, you know, it's for sort of those people on that pointy end of the spectrum that really have a lot going on or had some really significant event in their life. And actually, I would say that some clients come in as well and they're sort of like, oh, you know, I. I'm not, you know, I know other people have it so much worse than me and am I just complaining about, you know, trivial things? And no canceling is for anyone and everyone who has something to get out of it, who wants to get something out of it. And so, you know, sure, there are some of those people who are at that more pointy end of the spectrum who do have a lot going on, but a lot of what we see is, are things around workplace issues, relationship issues, even just things around self discovery, identifying values, understanding a bit more about themselves, what direction they want to go in in life.
And that's all so valid. And things that we love working with.
[00:02:08] Speaker B: Yeah, great. And often it can be a bit of a relief for counsellors too, to put the heaviest stuff down. Right. So put the kind of deep depression work or anxiety or trauma work and actually work with professionals, people that are struggling around specific issues at work and we'll dig a bit more into some of those common issues, but it can actually be a nice space to spend time in, right?
[00:02:34] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I love working with lots of different presentations, but, you know, it's. I really enjoy working with those people who sort of are coming in. They're sort of at that point where, you know, things aren't bad but things aren't great. And maybe wanting that extra bit of support to get them to a point where maybe they're just feeling like they're living lives are a little bit more aligned with their values or they're getting a bit more enjoyment out of or a bit more fulfillment out of great place to be.
[00:03:01] Speaker B: Yeah, and I guess that works too. Like a lot of us don't have the right tools maybe to work with a stressful workplace or, or different things that might be going on that are new or just escalated so the stress has really escalated or, or a new project is happening or something different is happening that they've never experienced before. That's where kind of counseling can help.
[00:03:27] Speaker A: Well, there's no handbook for these things. You don't get a handbook for life or for every sing different situation that's going to be thrown at you. So that's where somewhere like counseling can be really helpful to delve into those specific situations and maybe get some strategies or even just get a bit more understanding about what's going on.
[00:03:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay, so how about we have a chat? Maybe you, you might have some examples. I'll have some examples of some workplace stuff clients bring. So is any that come to your mind to talk through?
[00:03:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I think a really big one which probably doesn't come as too much of a surprise is around workload.
So either just feeling like people have got so much on their plate they're really struggling to manage or that the nature of the work feels out of their reach or capabilities and then maybe feeling that pressure. And that pressure often comes, often comes internally, but definitely can come externally as well from places like management or colleagues to perform to a certain standard.
And that can really lead to a lot of stress.
And you know, if you've got, if you've, you know, got a presentation of somebody who maybe is a little bit high on perfectionism or overachieving, then that can really take a toll on even their self esteem and their sense of self worth if they feel like they're not reaching that target, which often is really impossibly high either to reach or to maintain sustainably.
[00:04:58] Speaker B: Yeah. And again there might be this stigma or worry about themselves as a worker not being professional enough or busy enough or efficient, competent enough in the workplace. But lots and lots I think people would be surprised at how many people actually get to a crunch point or a struggle point where they might need some extra tools or just different ways of thinking about what they're doing to make it either easier or to really Think about what they need for themselves in the workplace too.
[00:05:36] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I also think that we, we live in a little bit of a hustle culture and it's really praised to be working really hard. And you often get that sense of kind of like validation when it's like, I worked for 12 hours and I do this and I do that and, you know, people like, wow, you're so hard working. And I think often we get that, you know, that bit of like a dopamine hit from hearing that too. And there's this idea that we should be able to and everyone else is able to, so I should be able to.
And actually sometimes the expectations are just way too high and way too high to maintain.
[00:06:11] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Either comparing yourself to another colleague who's, you know, smashing these goals or smashing these KPIs and we're not, or that client's not, or that, you know, as you say, the bar is set really high from external people.
[00:06:27] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And sometimes that dynamic can get set, sort of can be set from the beginning where maybe we enter a workplace and we're really keen to prove ourselves and so we're saying yes to everything and we're in maybe taking work home or skipping lunch or whatever the case might be. And, you know, boss is happy with that.
They're getting someone who's doing so much work, it's benefiting their company or, you know, whatever the case may be.
And then that dynamic is set and it's really hard to then come back down from that to then pull back when we've already set this expectation almost that we'll say yes and we're the colleague that gets it done and is happy to do it all.
[00:07:14] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, totally.
I often, whenever this conversation comes up, I call myself a little bit of a hypocrite, just based on a previous example for myself personally. A bit of self disclosure here, bit of segue, but self disclosure can be a kind of a useful tool if your own experience can kind of add to the story or add to normalizing the issue for the person or whether it kind of adds further to the conversation for the person to see a bit of perspective on what's going on.
So back to my little story. I used to work for a phone service managing a crisis line.
So I do overnight shifts, about 10 hour shifts, and then after that next day, I would see five clients the next day. So rounded up, it was about 70, 75 plus hours a week, which was ridiculous. Right. But there was this internal, like back to what you said Before Mary, there's this internal push of I can do it, I am doing it. You know, it's, it's working, it's, it's rolling along. But the kind of key issue that kind of was happening to me was I was burning out. But it was more the people around me that were saying, hun, like, you need stop. Like my partner was like, I don't see you. And when I see you, you're, you're really bloody angry. Like you're frustrated, you're, you're on edge. So it's interesting. Even if you can't step back or it feels like there's this impossibility there, sometimes it's good to touch base with our loved ones and ask their perspective on, on our work and how much we take home, etc.
[00:08:59] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And then just sort of really having that think about, I kind of like to sort of talk about in like this life pie chart, we've got all these different kind of hats that we wear. And you know, one part of it absolutely is Korea and you know, work and what we do there. But then maybe we're a partner, maybe we're, you know, a daughter, a son, a sibling, a parent, someone who enjoys hiking or swimming or, you know, whatever the case is. And you know, how much of our life pie chart has been taken up by work and how much space are we leaving for those other areas of our lives and those other parts of our identity?
[00:09:36] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I guess so there's the amount of work and the amount that kind of takes up in kind of the physical time space, but also the stress amount too. I think some people think that again, because it's the work I have to. That there's this kind of okayness or.
Yep, it's part of the work. So I have to be stressed and be okay with this stress. I wonder, have you talked much with clients about what is a threshold for not good stress or, you know, getting in the red zone of, of yak stress?
[00:10:16] Speaker A: Yeah. And look, I think, I think it would be unrealistic to say you're never going to feel stressed at work.
[00:10:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:23] Speaker A: And I actually think that a little bit of stress is not necessarily a bad thing. A little bit of stress can be motivating if we've no. Got that deadline for that report coming up and maybe we've just been procrastinating a little bit. Like I will raise my hand that I have done that many times, you know, and you kind of get that email like, hey, you know, where Are you tracking that little bit of stress is like, you know, it can be motivating, can kind of push us to, to get things done and, and that's important.
But then it is very easy to dip over into that sort of distress side. And that, I guess is when we feel like our.
Either we don't have the time, we don't have the resources, we don't have the capacity, we don't have the capabilities. And that can be chronic. And when it is chronic, it absolutely can lead to burnout. And that's a really. I would say that a lot of the time when, when clients come in about workplace stress, more often than not they're already at the point of burnout or they're very, they're very much on that trajectory to burnout.
[00:11:29] Speaker B: Yeah. So maybe let's spend some time on some of those warning signs that the partial threshold stress is kind of happening and that the ripples are there. So some of the ripples that I've found is, you know, someone taking a lot of that stress at home and not being able to, you know, de stress, not being able to sit on the couch and watch a TV show or go to sleep properly or, or kind of engage in, in a good way, you know, in a nice way with family. Any, any other kind of signs you've noticed with clients?
[00:12:04] Speaker A: I think sometimes even burnout can look a little bit like depression.
So feeling really or even like a high functioning depression where you're sort of going to work and you're getting things done and you're doing what you need to do to just keep things afloat, but you really don't have the space for anything else. So when, you know, your friends are calling you up on the weekend to go catch up, you just don't have the energy. Maybe you're isol or maybe you're either, as you said, struggling to sleep or oversleeping. Sometimes we just get home and we're just exhausted and it's just like going into bed, sleeping through until the morning, even just feeling flat, feeling hopeless, feeling like a loss of passion, I think is a big one. Maybe we've started a.
And that could be work related. Maybe we're losing our passion for our work, which we once really were passionate about and really enjoyed. Or maybe even losing passion for other areas of our life that we were once passionate about. Maybe we don't care so much about reading anymore or exercising anymore or playing guitar anymore.
Yeah, I think those are really clear warning signs that something's going on.
[00:13:12] Speaker B: Yeah, that Lack of joy or the spark kind of isn't there anymore. Another little surprise people might not know is a really good question a counselor should ask in the first couple of sessions is how's your sleep? And what's the relationship like with food? Right. So those are kind of two indicators. If, if there's something quite significant going on that's really impacting you, those ripples again, or it might be just another sign here that, you know, it's worth talking about things. There's, there's something going on mentally that you need some help with.
[00:13:48] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, that really can go either way. We're oversleeping, we're under sleeping, we're overeating, we're under eating. Every person different. But if we're noticing that fluctuation, something's not feeling quite right, something's different to how it was.
Probably a good indicator of, you know, some like small arm bells start going off or you kind of go, maybe I need to examine this a little bit more.
[00:14:12] Speaker B: Yep, yep.
[00:14:14] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:14] Speaker B: And I don't think lots of people are kind of aware of what's going on in their body. I know that sounds really strange, but if you live up here, so to speak, where it's all about deadlines, all about getting those emails done, all about, you know, go, go, go. We might be missing a really fast heart rate. We might be missing that like an edgy feeling that is our body telling us, hey, slow down. But we just keep pushing.
[00:14:42] Speaker A: Absolutely. Sometimes we're missing it and sometimes it's just so normal that we're like, this is just how I am. This is just, you know, I always feel like this. I'm always exhausted, I'm always fatigued, I'm always, you know, like, you know, don't have any energy to go out, see my friends on the weekend and it's like that's, that's not sustainable, that's not conducive with a healthy, you know, lifestyle.
[00:15:05] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:15:06] Speaker A: But if it's all you've ever known, it feels normal.
[00:15:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:11] Speaker A: And also, as you said, maybe not making that connection. And so I think sometimes people will come out, come into sessions and you know, they'll list out all of these things and then you dig a little bit deeper. And yeah, they are doing the 75 hour weeks. They're not seeing their friends, they're taking their work home from with them, they're not sleeping, they're not eating well and they're like, I don't know why, I just feel so anxious all the time and it's like.
Yeah.
[00:15:37] Speaker B: And so the first kind of few sessions with around workplace stress specifically is building awareness but also giving the person some tools on things that they can control. Right. You can control carving out some space for some kind of mindfulness activities or things that helps the person de. Escalate. Like, you know, we've, we've done a little another channel on emotional scales. Right. Or stress scales on, you know, on a, on a normal scale of zeros, being really calm and 10 out of 10 is like panic attack, like, you know, significant stress. What are your signs? What you know, what do you know about your body that tells you you're at a 10 out of 10 or a 0 and then what's, what's the middle ground and what helps you regulate that? Slow that down.
[00:16:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And that's right when we, you know, and we might be going through periods of, you know, high stress at work, but just being really mindful that that's not sustainable and that, you know, ultimately we need to have a bit of a plan or see that bit of a light at the end of the tunnel, that deadline's over. And then what do we do after that to bounce back to, you know, maybe we take some leave, maybe we pull back on some other projects.
So being aware of, you know, that that balance is not always going to be perfect, but being really aware of where we're at on that scale and what we're going to do if it's sort of tipping over to that other end.
[00:17:07] Speaker B: Yeah. And, and further to that is when does this stop? Right. Like, are you literally on this treadmill that literally is staying at that same speed forever not sustainable. But even, you know, let's, you know, for those kind of highly perfectionist people, you are not going to do a good enough job or their best job at that rate, forever. You just can't.
So I think whether you take the angle of this isn't sustainable for your health and your family and you know, balance, but also from a performance angle of if you're not sleeping or your sleep is really not great, you're eating poorly and you're isolating, you are not going to be able to throw 100% at work.
[00:17:56] Speaker A: And I think it's so easy to, you know, then get to that point where, you know, you're letting things slip, maybe double booking meetings, you're forgetting things, you know, and then that. And I think, you know, for the often that in the perfectionistic, unrelenting standards type client that comes in, then that really takes even a bigger toll to their self esteem. They're like, oh my gosh, I'm working so hard but I'm making all these mistakes and I'm actually not getting the things done that I'm supposed to get done. And, and we kind of just end up in this vicious cycle where then we, well, I've just got to work harder, I've got to be more organized, I've got to do this, I've got to add ads, add, add. And actually often it's not about adding.
It might be that pulling back sometimes too.
[00:18:39] Speaker B: It kind of makes me think of another specific episode we should probably spend time on down the track. And that is when people feel stuck right where there's no getting off the treadmill. You know, this is how it is. I've trained at university to be a lawyer and I'm in a law firm and I've always wanted this or wanted this and now I can't leave, I can't get off the treadmill because there's so many layers to that about self esteem, their identity in the world. You know, what if I do walk away and quit? What, what does that mean? Like a lot of people with burnout and then the I can't kind of thinking can be a really depressing, horrible space.
[00:19:30] Speaker A: Absolutely, absolutely.
And that cycle is one that it can be really hard to break. And also once we are burnt out, I mean every person is different but sometimes it's not as easy as take an extra day and make it a three day long weekend and you'll be right sometimes there that you know, some people need to take a month off, sometimes longer to feel better or you know, and not only that, but then, then put things in place afterwards to then make, make things a little bit more sustainable. We've got to break that cycle.
[00:20:07] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So yeah, it definitely feels like we've gone down this very specific route of stress and the impact on our body and the kind of, kind of bigger picture of what stress does as a ripple effect.
So that's really cool. I'm wondering if we can kind of get back to maybe some other common presentations separate to stress. So there' stress in terms of workload and the impact on the person. But I wonder maybe a little bit more about some of the external workplace environment stuff that also can be a challenge for people and prompt people for time with us as counsellors. One that comes to my mind is your way of doing things doesn't line up with the workplace and management might be telling you to do one thing that really rubs you the wrong way or feels unethical or feels wrong, but that's the kind of business line that they're taking and the impact of that.
Any other kind of scenarios that you can think of, Mary, around external replacing stuff? Yeah.
[00:21:16] Speaker A: I think maybe what you. You might sort of be on the trajectory of talking about is values and that sort of maybe misalignment of values within a workplace.
And I guess the thing that. One thing that pops up for me is even people will talk about that, like fairness, like fairness in the workplace in terms of, you know, maybe expectations of different colleagues, expectations of management, like you said, having an idea that things should be done a particular way, but that not really feeling right.
And also that sort of feeling validated. I think feeling like, you know, what you do is. Is valued and acknowledged by your colleagues, by your management. It's not being overlooked. I think that that's another presentation that I see where you see these people who are so passionate, working so hard, and it's just sort of taken for granted or it feels as if it's taken for granted and that's not motivating.
[00:22:18] Speaker B: Yeah. And then, yeah, it's like another spiral of if you don't feel appreciated from your boss and they're not particularly a person that gives positive feedback or good review, sometimes our brain chases that evidence too. Right. Like, if. If that's the kind of ingrained belief or something that's been planted, then it's so very hard to think differently or. Or to debunk that. That belief too, sometimes. Yeah.
[00:22:48] Speaker A: Yeah. And just feeling as if, you know, we're not being acknowledged, we're not being rewarded, we, as you said, like, look out for those signs. So, you know, I've done this thing and no one said anything. What does that mean about me? There's, you know, been working so hard for, why am I even doing this?
[00:23:05] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think it's kind of worth saying too, that in the counseling space, it's not really a counsellor's job to tell a client what to do, but it's really important to kind of put the options on the table, on what's possible.
And so just having that space with a counsellor to explore your options.
And what I often say with clients is, you. You pretty much always have three options in life, so do nothing. So literally just keep doing the same thing over and over again. Try something different. And that's the nature of counseling, is trying something different. Testing, experimenting, etc. To see if things can change. Or leave. Right. Like that. That is an option. And we're not. We're not pushy. But I think sometimes having that space of what is possible and what you can do helps a lot of people feel, okay, I. I can ponder this. I don't have to, you know, make a decision here. It's just exploring what I can and can't do. Yeah.
[00:24:15] Speaker A: Yeah. And often I'll sort of put it that way to clients. And so let's just put it on the table. We don't have to take this option, but let's just lay it out. Let's just see what is available to us and. And just do some exploring.
And I think it is worth acknowledging, you know, within the workplace, there are absolutely things that are within our control. So, you know, we've talked about prioritizing, saying no, setting boundaries, self care, you know, all of those types of things. But also, there are some things that just aren't in your control. You know, we can clean up our end of the street, but if you've got, you know, and I've had clients who've told me that they have bosses who yell, who, you know, who criticize heavily, or, you know, colleagues who do the same, sure, we can talk about how you might manage those interactions and expectations and, you know, all of those sorts of things, and that can be helpful. But ultimately, you can't control another person.
And that's where that other option of, you know, leaving becomes worth exploring. And it's not something that we ever often tell clients to do unless it's sort of really, really obvious that they need to get out.
But it is worth acknowledging that that is an option that's. That's on the table. And. And sometimes I. I'll have clients kind of say, well, why should I have to leave? That's not fair. And. And I get that.
[00:25:33] Speaker B: It.
[00:25:34] Speaker A: It feels really unfair. It's like, I love this job. Why should I have to leave? Because I've got a crappy manager, and I can feel really, really unfair and really unjust. But also, what are our options here? And is it also fair for you to stay in an environment where. Where you're being, you know, often, like, emotionally abused or treated really poorly?
[00:25:52] Speaker B: Yep. So, Mary, yeah, we have talked a lot today about workplace stress and kind of that treadmill that people get on that feel that they can't get off, or there's a certain speed they have to go, or intensity they have to push themselves.
I think another thing that counseling can do is give a fresh perspective.
A lot of us kind of come into workplaces, for instance, whether it be, you know, through a university pathway or training or, you know, you've, you have a cult, a certain culture kind of placed on you, so to speak, that you move into. And with that comes a lot of beliefs that kind of frame how you work as a worker. And that might be stuff related to productivity and busyness, professionalism and what that looks like boundaries in the workplace. What's okay, what's not okay. And I think a really big takeaway that lots of clients have from counseling is, ah, I've been thinking this or this has been an automatic thing that my brain has gone, I have to be this busy or I have to say yes to everything or I have to also that I have to kind of lay down and take it, so to speak, and not actually really question things or even just think about the personal impacts of that stuff.
So yeah, have you got an example, I guess, of a client walking away going, now I see that different.
[00:27:34] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And I think you raise a really good point about, you know, those belief systems that we don't even realize that are there when we're in the trenches, when we're just sort of going through the motions of everyday life.
It's, it, it's really hard to take that step back and examine it. But also it's really hard when it's you.
And actually, even counselors really benefit from therapy. And I've certainly had experiences with my therapist where I think I know everything about me and then I go in and I go, actually, no, I don't. And actually there are all these things that I really wasn't aware of. And that can range from maybe the impact of past experiences or just preconceived ideas of how we should be or how we should act.
And it can be really helpful to enter the therapy space and just get that third person perspective around what are they and how are they serving me and what are maybe some more adaptive ways of viewing or tackling this situation. And I think for me, a lot of the initial work I do with clients is just understanding, understanding why do I think the way I do and when do these triggers pop up and why and what has to them? And I think that can be so empowering for people. If we don't know why we do things or why we think a certain way, how can we possibly change them?
And then, yeah, totally.
[00:29:05] Speaker B: And yeah, I guess kind of rounding all that together, people can come to counseling for say, two, three sessions and that be it, right? Like they almost like, you know, a car needs maintenance or, you know, a regular yearly checkup, even if the car is running totally fine, A, because there might be problems you're not aware of that need tuning up. And B, it's kind of this really proactive measure to make sure it is sustainable, make sure that we are getting the right support. And who knows, there might be better tools or better things we can use to help us feel balanced and help things move along more easily.
[00:29:49] Speaker A: Absolutely. I think that as counseling doesn't look the same way even in just in terms of frequency, person by person. There are people who benefit from those two or three sessions. There are people who benefit from ongoing. There are people who benefit from dipping in and out as needed. And that's all completely valid.
[00:30:09] Speaker B: Yeah. Great.
So for people listening or watching this episode, if this is hitting a chord or maybe you have a loved one who do, you're actually worried about their stress level. You're actually worried about how hard they're pushing, that they're kind of stuck in this treadmill thinking of, I have to, I need to push.
Maybe it's worth tapping on their shoulder, getting them to tune into this or even for yourself, reaching out and let's have a conversation about what's happening for you, the impacts on your life, and can we do that better? Can we do that in a way that feels much more aligned with our values and sustainable? Sustainable.
Cool. So, yeah. Thanks, Mary. It's been a real pleasure chatting this through.
[00:30:56] Speaker A: Likewise. Thanks, Steve.
[00:30:57] Speaker B: Cool. If you would like some more information about Safe Place Therapy, you can kind of follow our website link in the comment section. We've got oodles of information, but also information about our different counselors and their approach.
And yeah, tune into Safe Place Therapy, your safe place to talk. Thanks and bye for now.
