Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
Welcome to the Safe Place Therapy podcast channel. My name is Stuart Shevorden and I am one of the owners and directors of Safe Place Therapy and I'm a mental health social worker. I'd like to begin by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land in which we meet today. I would also like to pay my respects to elders past, present and emerging. We record this episode on. In all our episodes in the Kulin Nation, but also on other beautiful lands across Victoria.
Well, welcome everyone. Today we're doing a podcast related to intimacy and sex. I think a lot of people might get confused about the topic or unsure how to explore that. So we're here today with Daniel D. Pietro, who is a sexologist and counselor with Safely Therapy to explain the ins and outs of sex and intimacy. So thanks, Daniel. Thanks for coming on board.
[00:01:05] Speaker B: Thanks for having me, Stuart.
[00:01:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
So sex, I. I wonder what that's like bringing that up in a counseling setting. What, what are some of the reactions? What do you notice when sex is brought up with. With clients?
[00:01:22] Speaker B: A few different reactions. You know, some. For some partners, you know, they, they have wide eyes for some people coming in. For other people, it's exactly what they've come in my room for to talk about. And it's. I'm open to exploring it every in which way possible, but it is a big topic for some people to. To tackle and a lot of challenges faced within sex and intimacy and pleasure.
[00:01:48] Speaker A: Yeah. So what do you think gets in the way of people talking about sex in general with their partner or, or even getting help around sex and intimacy?
[00:02:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, there's preconceived notions perhaps of what we should be as sexual providers, and that's gender scripting on both sides. You know, so there's, there's gender barriers there. There's also cultural barriers perhaps that, that stop people from coming in, people who have a belief system around sex, whether that be from a religious point of view or otherwise.
But as well, it's, you know, perhaps sex isn't talked about. Well now it is more so in the media, but hasn't been really out in as open as it has been probably in the last 10 years or so. So there's still perhaps a little bit of stigma around it.
[00:02:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. What are some of those stigmas that. That kind of naturally come up when sex is brought up?
[00:02:47] Speaker B: Yeah. So, you know, for certain sexual interests, whether that be kink or fetishes, whether that be opening up their relationship, whether that be exploring sexuality, you know, particularly for heis or, you know, People who thought they were het CIS male and wanting to explore their sexuality there. So a lot of scripts to kind of break down and, and challenge.
[00:03:13] Speaker A: Yeah. And how do you debunk some of that stuff? So some of these narratives, some of these belief stuff gets in the way. What's the work you do there to help?
[00:03:23] Speaker B: Yeah, well, first off, I normalize that. I. I do, whenever I have my first session, talk a little bit about myself in terms of, you know, I enjoy kink and fetish. I'm a king and fetish practitioner myself. So normalizing that experience, talking about it in a way that's non shaming and being very curious about everyone's experiences that come into my room, you know, and it's very important just to normalize whatever anyone may bring in because, you know, sex is something. And intimacy is very. Something very subjective.
[00:03:56] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. I think sometimes it is helpful to dig down in definitions or kind of concepts in a real basic way first because some people get lost in maybe a word meaning something else or something different or the history of those words. So, so what is sex and what is intimacy?
[00:04:17] Speaker B: Yeah, so, you know, sex, again, it's very subjective. It means a lot of things to a lot of people. You know, my definition of sex may mean something a lot more different to someone el. So I really asked that question in the first session in terms of, you know, what does sex mean to you and what is sex? Yeah, and intimacy is something that perhaps incorporates an emotional intimacy attachment there or can be physical as well as something sexual. So it's really a combination flavor of everything. So I do like using the word intimacy because there is this kind of preconceived notion that sex is something that's coital, very heteronormative point of view of sex. So I do like breaking down that stigma.
[00:04:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Because it could look quite different, right?
[00:05:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it looks different to everyone. You know, for some people just lazily making out on the couch naked. Right. Funneling with each other's bodies, that could be sex. Right. Or, you know, whether it be engaging in a non penetrative behavior or whatever that may be, that's sex too.
[00:05:19] Speaker A: Yeah, right. Yeah. And I guess, you know, for people that are socialized in a certain way, watching certain pornography or certain ideas related to their. Their job in sex, like.
[00:05:32] Speaker B: Yes, yes. And I'm really glad you brought that up because, you know, as a sexologist, we're really geared towards pleasure and exploratory of sex rather than something that's goal orientated and you know, Goal orientated means that it sits through different phases. You know, there's foreplay, which I'm not big fan of that word. You know, it means that there's this kind of. It's the kind of prelude to the bigger event, which is, you know, perhaps coitus. Right. So, you know, it's kind of this goal orientated event for some people rather than something, you know, hey, we explore each other's bodies, we focus on each other's pleasure without kind of this emphasis on an orgasm. Right. You know, we may clank teeth together, we may have all our body parts kind of flopping all over the place, but that's what it is. It's all about having fun. And that's what I feel like I hope to bring to my clients when they come in the room and exploring sex in a fun way and intimacy in a fun way.
[00:06:26] Speaker A: Yeah, okay. I like. Because it's such a taboo topic, sex and intimacy. I'm wondering, you know, the. The different partners that come see you, is there some real foreign concepts that maybe someone hasn't explored before or has never even thought about?
[00:06:46] Speaker B: Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. I mean, particularly when it may come to kink or fetish, you know, what is that to explore? Right. How do we even start exploring that? So, you know, we start on a basic communication, trying to make sure that, you know, everyone's communication, we're on the same page here, is that we're not trying to fight for each other's needs, we're trying to fight. Well, we're trying to work on the needs of the relationship when they come in. Whenever there is kind of that big taboo. I don't know how to bring this up to my partner. And you know, what does it mean to have it with them? And I always like to bring it in in terms of being partner specific. In the context of your relationship, why is, why would you enjoy this experience with your partner? Because what may happen is that some people bring an experience in. For instance, you know, it could be something like, I don't know, a foot fetish, for instance. You know, someone may bring that in and they may give it as a generalized kind of statement. But why with your partner, why would you enjoy that? What is it about that that you would enjoy? So really kind of getting into the nuances and creating a space of safety because bringing up something that may seem non normative, you know, and I hate even using, you know, what is nor normal sex, you know, but, you know, bring something in that may be against kind of the cultural Grain, you know, it's trying to bring that safety and saying, you know, I. This is quite hard for me to bring up perhaps. And you know, I'd really like if you just listen to what I had to say because I want to share my experiences with you and hopefully that this, that we could share together in this couple space and then navigating the consent around that.
[00:08:24] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. And I think that's a nice flow through question to consent. So, you know, there's a lot of talk out there in the community around consent and what that looks like, what that sounds like. So from a professional point of view, what is consent?
[00:08:39] Speaker B: I'd always say it's explicit consent and always go to explicit consent. Whether that be just checking in, you know, consent's the most sexiest thing. So just checking in and saying, you know, how are you enjoying this experience? You know, checking in for yourself. Are you enjoying this experience? Right. Because it's not just consent for the other person, it's consent for self.
[00:09:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:09:01] Speaker B: Right. And even if you pick up on non verbal cues. Right. Because you know, that may be a little bit of implicit consent. Right. But it's always good just to check in if you notice something change in the dynamic, you know, hey, I just noticed that this happened. Are we still okay? Do you need to stop, whatever that may be? I do talk a little bit about a traffic light system, you know, so whether that be green, that everything's going okay. No, orange may mean something like, you know, I'm okay in this experience right now, but do check in in the next few minutes or so. And red just means stop completely. And let's, let's check in and do some self care.
[00:09:39] Speaker A: Almost like a more drilled down version of a safe word or, you know.
[00:09:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. And it's so important whenever we're exploring new sexual experiences to have that safety in place. And that's why communication is such a big key in what I do in terms of. It's just you need to have that communication in that consent.
[00:09:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I guess ultimately we want our partner to, to feel that pleasure of, or have that sense of desire and, and that safety, you know, might be a shudder or it might be a flinch or something that, you know, it's important to investigate.
[00:10:14] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, most definitely.
[00:10:16] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. So how do you start the conversations around needs and intimacy? What does that look like?
[00:10:24] Speaker B: Yeah. So typically I started off, I plant the seeds in the first session, so talking about perhaps where the relationship is sexually. If I do have a partnership coming in by the Individual coming in, talking about their relationship, you know, what are they perceiving? Their kind of needs are in the relationship, you know, what are they getting? What do you feel like? Well, what. What do they feel like they're not getting within the relationship? You know, what would it look like if they did get their needs met? So, you know, really just navigating that space and. And talking about perhaps the differences and what can be achieved?
[00:11:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. I'm wondering, have you ever had a couple or. Or a presentation where they're drastically different, the needs and what is that?
[00:11:15] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I have. So, you know, it's not uncommon for couples or partnerships to come in, and there's very drastic needs in the relationship. And. And what sex actually means to each person can. Can be drastically different. You know, for one person, it can be emotional connection, and for the other person, it can just be a physical need. And so it's even navigating that space in terms of. Well, if I understand that this is what my partner's needing to be emotionally connected, am I more willing to lean in? But it doesn't have to be the bigger ticket items, right. In terms of, you know, anything that requires a lot of energy, you know, can it be something where we do have those naked couch moments where we're together and is that enough? And I'd be checking in and negotiating with each of the clients or whatever that may be, saying, what Would that be enough? Would that fill your cup? Even though there may be this discrepancy on frequency or what that needed the relationship is.
[00:12:13] Speaker A: Yeah. So just hearing that, it doesn't sound like it's a big deal breaker, at least initially, if they're that. That different.
[00:12:22] Speaker B: No, no. And typically there's ways to work through them. And I help a lot of my clients that come through the door being able to negotiate that and reconfigure their relationship to relationship 2.0, the one that's, you know, erotically charged and one that they're getting their sexual needs met.
[00:12:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:39] Speaker B: And open communication around that.
[00:12:43] Speaker A: Yeah. And is that another term, that emotional connection? Is that sometimes really foreign for one partner or a couple?
[00:12:53] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, whenever I see a partnership or individual client and they're kind of not understanding why their partner is not being receptive or. Or what may be happening in their experiences. You know, I like back to the circular model of sexual desire where they talk about emotional intimacy sitting at the top, that if we're not in get. Well, if we're not receiving our emotional needs, then we're not going to engage or want to receive any sexual advances. And once people start understanding that, they connect more with, I guess, what they're needing emotionally within their relationships or for themselves and how to express themselves authentically.
[00:13:29] Speaker A: Yeah. So if someone isn't feeling that intimacy and not feeling that closeness, what are some of the underlying issues that might be going on there?
[00:13:40] Speaker B: Yeah. So it could be communication breakdown. So in terms of no matter what I say, my partner won't be hearing me. You know, my needs won't be met by my partner because if I can't even get them to take out the bin, how am I going to get them to, you know, engage in a way that I'd want them to? There'd be ways as well with trust issues, whether that be breaches of trust through infidelity, compulsive sexual behaviors such as porn or sex workers or whatever that may be. So there's varying amount of difficulties that. That can impede communication and perhaps set a bit of a case file as to why my partner can't meet my needs.
[00:14:21] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. And what if one individual in that partnership thought there were real problems, but the other partner just said it was fine? Like. Yeah, like, what would that look like in a couple setting if one person was very much, you know, this is, you know, break it situation and the other partner was. Was fine.
[00:14:45] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I really then invite the partner. Well, the partner who's been hurt. Right. To talk from that I place. Because typically when we're hurt, what I typically see come through the door is that people come from a you place in terms of what they've done to the hurt person rather than, you know, how are they feeling without involving, you know, your behavior or those you statements, you know, So I always invite the language of, you know, I feel sad in the relationship when the bins aren't taken out, for example, sake or. And it takes away that, you know, you never take the bins out. And it always pisses me off. Yeah, right. It's. There's a difference in that communication style. It's still expressing how we're feeling. Or, you know, I feel frustrated when in the relationship when the bins don't take it out. We're still stating it, but it's coming from an eye place rather than perhaps accusatory place.
[00:15:39] Speaker A: Yeah. And that's a really fair point that a lot of the arguments, a lot of the other yucky stuff comes into the bedroom and kind of dries up sex. Right. Or dries up that interest.
[00:15:52] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, and again, those you statements I also hear come up in the bedroom in terms of perhaps when it comes to gender scripting, if a penis owner has sexual difficulties, you know, you're. You're not providing me what I want.
[00:16:07] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's really big language and.
[00:16:17] Speaker B: And heavy. Heavy to hold.
[00:16:22] Speaker A: Yeah. How do you create safety with that? Because that's, you know, for, you know, a penis owner or a vagina owner in terms of that. Yeah. Real shame, I suppose, all that, all that gap. How do you sit with that?
[00:16:37] Speaker B: Yeah. So talking into perhaps what that was like for that person to hear. Right. The impact it had on them. But speaking from that eye place, very important to get a client to just sit with that emotion and speak from the eye place, whether that be shame, you know, perhaps. Is there a word of how you felt when that was said?
[00:16:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:57] Speaker B: You know, and allowing that other partner to see that really, really allows them to attune to their partner and perhaps be a little more softer and. And make a bid for forgiveness in those moments. Now, I didn't understand that it impacted you as deeply as it did. You know, I was just feeling frustrated because this has been a difficulty for me as well.
[00:17:20] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Sometimes dealing with couples, I often ponder the idea of taking, you know, kind of penetrative sex off the table. You know, what would that actually be like if that expectation wasn't there or. Or there was, or the focus was on other stuff before that, you know, and sometimes that relief of, oh, I don't have to do that, like, there's no obligation there. And. Yeah, I'm wondering if there's other things in that that helps couples see sex differently or see intimacy in a less. Less job like role.
[00:17:58] Speaker B: Yes, yes. So, you know, I get quite a few partnerships coming through the door that may schedule sex. And, you know, that's something that I straight away say, you know, scheduling sex doesn't add any spontaneity because in that circular model of sexual des. Spontaneity. And that's kind of the embers that light the whole model up. Right. So what I invite is more of an intimacy menu. Right. Something that's collaborative, something that the partnership can go back to explore together, choose from their menu, what they're liking, just depending on their current energy levels. So I invite more of that where it keeps it a little bit spontaneous in that we're not scheduled in terms of, again, you know, kind of this foreplay experience than to penetrative sex. It's more open and we could explore other things. And I do advocate for, I guess, exploring the non penetrative aspects. I also have a sexpedition resource that I do give to my clients as well, that they're able to explore other ways of connecting.
[00:18:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:56] Speaker B: And with prompts of how to actually state that in their own time.
[00:19:01] Speaker A: Mm.
Yeah. Okay. There's a lot of cool tools there. It sounds to. To bounce that around and. Yeah. To. To think a little bit more outside the square of. Of sex.
[00:19:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Because particularly when that language and that word sex gets brought up, it tends to go back to, well, it's coital, it's penetrative, rather than, you know, what is sex? And I feel like that's quite important to get from that first session is that both partners understand what that actually is. Right. Is sex something that's all inclusive of sexual activity as a whole, or is sex just coital?
[00:19:38] Speaker A: Yeah. Stepping back from sex, like a lot of the kind of dryness or the kind of not having sex status, I suppose, for. For couples is that lack of spark. I wonder. Yeah. Do you have any tools around sparking things up, warming up, that kind of engagement?
[00:20:00] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, particularly when it comes around emotional intimacy. I have a little bit of a date jar exercise that I like giving clients as well. And. And that comes with, you know, each person writes down five dates that they would like. Right. And it's what they would enjoy, perhaps without keeping the other person in mind. But you also write down, depending on weather, logistics, finances. Right. You keep that in mind. You put that in the jar, you fold up the pieces of paper, and each, maybe a Thursday or whatever, you set your date day as you shake it, and that you both get to have your experiences and then you get to debrief, you know. So what was that like with you? What did you enjoy doing in that experience? Because for some people, it's that sense of, you know, well, I actually really did this for me. And. And you enjoyed that hearing that made me feel more connected to you. And it opens me up to exploring more and new things when it comes to the intimate space. So it's kind of almost this. This. This prelude. By exploring the emotional intimacy, it'd be easy to then explore the sexual intimacy side of things too.
[00:21:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, that's great. Because, yeah, it sounds like that feeling of my partner isn't making that effort or there doesn't seem to be that energy there. And I think that's a big part of taking those steps forward is. Is a little bit of risk, isn't It, I want this, this is important to me, but also kind of making that time and stepping out of our comfort zone.
[00:21:32] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And as well as, you know, I do like bringing in Betty Martin's will of consent and she developed something called the three Minute game, which I do as well, to invite clients to explore and go outside the zone. And it's non sexual touching, but it's touching nonetheless. In terms of, you know, what is it that you're enjoying from the experience stating is this touch? Okay. You know, I would like harder touch and getting to state needs in the physical space as well. And it's actually quite a fun game when I get the feedback from, from my clients on that.
[00:22:06] Speaker A: Great.
[00:22:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:07] Speaker A: Okay. What other tools would you use for a couple or individual when it comes to intimacy or sex?
[00:22:15] Speaker B: Yeah, so when it comes to communication, particularly around intimacy or sex. No, I get a lot of clients that have had experience or past experience with couples therapy or partnership therapy, and they say that, you know, they've been given all these great tools to practice, but no action. And, you know, we need to practice having a new toy to work with. So I do invite a lot of role play exercises in, in session. So whether that be through communication about talking about intimacy or sexual experiences, whether that be things like Betty Martin's three Minute game, whether that be through an individual process or a partnership process, you know, that's non sexual touching in the room, whether that be something like using one of my psychosexual education tools and them getting an actual feel or grasp or understanding as to perhaps genitalia or how their body even may work, or different ways of touching their body.
So I do like bringing my resources in and doing a little bit of role playing session that, that adds another depth to my practice.
[00:23:20] Speaker A: Right.
Yes. We were going to make another podcast related to my body, my penis, my vagina. And I think that would be a really good exploration for us to, to talk through. There seems to be a lot of gaps there, even just around, you know, pleasure spots or how to engage with a vagina. How to engage with the penis.
Yeah, yeah.
[00:23:42] Speaker B: And as well as exploring erogenous zones, that's a, that's another kind of tool I get my clients to take home with them in terms of just exploring and, and just finding the pleasure. Not trying to aim for an orgasm or anything, but just trying to explore the erosion zones. So that's another kind of take home exercise that I do as well.
[00:24:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
From a professional setting with counselors more broadly. You know, I think a lot of counselors come to me who worry about bringing up sex or worry about bringing up intimacy with other individuals or couples. What do you say to that? What. What do you think is helpful about raising sex?
[00:24:24] Speaker B: Yeah, please do it. Please do it more.
It's an integral part of most people's lives, if not everyone's lives. You know, it's, it's a world health organization. Right. In terms of being sexually, all your sexual rights and having sexual intimacy in the way that you're wanting. So, you know, do bring it up. It's a, a crucial part of who we are and how we represent ourselves to the world. So it's very important, I feel like, particularly when it comes to, you know, this holistic experience of mind and body.
[00:24:57] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I think that's super important. That's part of lots of romantic relationships and, and for a counselor not to do that. I find that interesting. I wonder whether there's some internal work today. Yeah, but also it's okay to have that gap. There's. There are professionals like yourself, sexologists who are very comfortable and very experienced in that space.
But we still need to ask the question, right?
[00:25:24] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It's so important. And even just asking the basics of, you know, what does sex mean to you?
[00:25:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:25:33] Speaker B: Right. Or, or what is it that you feel after connecting with your partner sexually or whatever that may be. But just asking a initial question, particularly if you're in a partnership space, because not to ask that question is not doing the, the partnership any justice at all. Because they probably are having a sexually, you know, active life. So.
[00:25:59] Speaker A: Yeah. And, you know, I say this often to counsellors. If you're not the one bringing it up, who is going to bring it up with this person?
[00:26:06] Speaker B: Right.
[00:26:07] Speaker A: That person doesn't feel like there is that space that they can to with you. Are they really going to talk to their family about it? Probably not.
You know, the stigma attached to this stuff is really tricky. So, yeah, it makes sense to go there. And if they don't want to go there, they don't have to, you know.
[00:26:25] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. But it's all about normalizing it, that this is okay to talk about that again. We're breaking that stigma of, of what's taboo and it's something that we all do. Right. So it's just, it's just breaking that taboo cycle of it and normalizing the experience for the clients.
[00:26:45] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay.
So thank you again. This has been really cool to bounce this stuff around and I have lots of our counselors at safeplay coming to you and talking to you about intimacy. And I'm sure there's lots of clients who come your way and walk away with oodles of information. So thank you, Daniel.
[00:27:08] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks, Jim.
[00:27:10] Speaker A: And yeah, there's going to be some more podcasts coming our way in terms of intimacy, communication, relationships. But if you are struggling or you need some support, please reach out to our team. Okay, thanks and bye for now.
